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The Inevitability of the Grave

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    September 14, 2011 3:19:45 AM EDT

    Every living thing eventually dies.

     

    The beliefs of many ancient spiritual traditions of our world hold that there are multiple parts to every being's soul - or that every being has multiple souls - and that a part of your soul (or one of them) wants to die - though it is in no particular hurry to do so. You don't often have to go very far to find people who subconsciously manifest this - they drink over much, they drive too fast, they chase death in an effort to feel alive – perhaps they call themselves adventurers and chase after dragons and Old Gods – the compulsion can take many forms. As we endeavor to breathe life into the personas we create in-game, our characters ought to be no different.

     

    You have likely strived to shirk the finality of your character's mortality - even if they are unfazed by age such as Draenei or Elves. Some of your characters have come close to death, or tasted it only to return by magic, cunning, or some other contrivance. I've observed the storylines of our server for many years now, and pulling a likely figure out of thin air, it seems reasonable that for every 25 times this happens, only one character will actually die, and more importantly, stay dead. In reality, the ratio is very easily the opposite, if not exponentially so.

     

    We cling to the lives of our beloved characters dearly, for we have spent a great deal of time with them, and they are awesome! However, I would challenge you to find a handful of your favorite stories where death is present and consider how the death of the character(s) you may have loved so much enhanced the overall story, your memory of them, and how well you regarded them. Often, an individual’s life is gauged not only by how they lived, but how they died.  A few such characters come to mind: Uther or Bolvar, Ned Stark, Boromir, Obi-wan or Anakin, Sirius Black or Snape… the list is endless.

     

    Though our natural response is to cling to what we love, to stave off the inevitable, I feel as though we have cheapened our characters and our stories by depriving them of a necessary plot device, of tangible tragedy, and actual realized mortal peril. What I am suggesting here is not theoretical or philosophical. I want your character to die. They will eventually, whether you or they will admit it or not – why not give them a heroic death instead of a fall into obscurity, deletion, or to collect dust as your subscription lapses.

     

    To be clear, this isn’t a judgment on the quality of RP - this is intended to be an opportunity for us to revitalize our server with good storytelling and some new, hopefully just-as-awesome-or-moreso characters. Bearing that in mind, I invite you to join me in creating a player-driven Wrathgate –like event. This isn’t a decision to be made rashly one way or the other – I suggest thinking it over at length. My aim is to recruit over a dozen characters for this event – the more well-known and prolific, the better (thus the higher the stakes and the more weight the act of sacrifice carries).

     

    The setting is malleable, as is the timeline. This is not the sort of thing that should be rushed. There may be a unique opportunity with the advent of the upcoming Patch 4.3 and the final fight with Deathwing. Time permitting, the impending raids may be a noble and fitting opportunity to go die in a fire. You get to forge your epic death – no one else will be killing off your character (unless that’s what you want and you’re involved). What will be provided is one or more opportunities and settings for it to happen.  Once the overarching plot is kicked off, there will be a timeline for when events happen, and you will be expected to keep up (within reason).

     

    There is but one rule. When your character dies, he or she must stay dead.

     

    This would likely necessitate retiring the character from active RP if not paying to changing their name, appearance, gender, or even faction (but hopefully not their server) – class will remain the same, but there is still great flexibility. Coming back as a ghost from time to time is fine, so long as they remain dead.  There are many things to consider. If you are a guild leader, this could pose a problem of loss of IC leadership, a power vacuum if no successor is named, and so on. For now, we are only brainstorming and committing our intention to the ideas I laid out at the start of this post.

     

    This is the first step of two. The second is the transition of the slain to new characters and the advancement and/or conclusion of storylines that the slain were involved in. Some key considerations: What will their demise mean for your character’s heirs, lovers, comrades? What type of character could your faction use – what archetype is there none or very few of? (Hint: There are already at least a dozen Archmages, Magistrates, Commanders, High Somethings and Lords of Something. Be something more ordinary in design – that doesn’t mean average.) Considering this second step is vital, as it may provide great motive for the first.

     

    If you choose not to opt-in to this fateful scheme, I would ask that you consider whatever peril and near-death experience your character has had or may have in the future as the transformation that it is. Just as death was transformative to Highlord Bolvar’s character, and any Forsaken character, a close encounter with the void is enough to affect the most stalwart psyche. Enough to change their character, attitude, decisions, and so on. If you’re with me on the philosophical piece and don’t want your character to be off’ed, you can still do your part to help reverse the way we have cheapened mortality by allowing your creations to be more mutable and multi-dimensional.

     

    If you are brave enough to help your character commit to their own mortality, join the Ghosts and Gravestones group. That will be used to gauge interest and organize the whole thing – which I’ll wait on for a few weeks so that people have some time to think about it.

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    September 14, 2011 3:32:20 AM EDT
    Just to be clear - I am putting my money where my mouth is. If this idea gets adequate support, Jaero the Grim will meet his end. I've spent 7 years with him, loved every moment of creating his story, and lament that not near enough of it has been written down. This is a sacrifice, to be sure. I make it willingly to help give this server some fine storytelling.
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    September 14, 2011 3:41:44 AM EDT
    A few clarifications: This may not necessarily be a one-off, where everyone dies at once. My chief concern is a compelling storyline. It may be one character dying which galvanizes 20 more to act, and eventually be slain. Others may be slain after. The timeline on this could be 3 months or a year. Again, not something to be rushed, and not one single opportunity to be missed. There is plenty of room to give proper closure, though abrupt deaths of unfinished lives - there's great tragedy to be had there.
    • 64 posts
    September 14, 2011 3:53:48 AM EDT
    Definitely worth some thought and consideration, especially when a character is developed to overcome their flaws to become a fully complete character. Sometimes its good to move on to new projects....

    I like this idea. Although I think the OOC knowledge a character might die soon is best unshared, to avoid the pre-drama and people taking it hard OOCly. Having Vel on the seat of permadeath sure opened a tell hell of discontent.

    Death is a concept worth thinking about... /ponder
  • September 14, 2011 4:10:25 AM EDT
    I'm afraid I must play Devil's Advocate.

    I personally have no desire to kill off any of my characters, especially Casey (who I leveled twice and is now, basically how people recognize me in Warcraft). I also don't feel that RP has suffered much. The game is a mere seven years old. Are we saying that we cannot come up with decent roleplay for a span of time in which the average child might just be starting the second grade?

    Naturally if people want to kill their characters for RP reasons, I will support them and in no way contradict their stories.

    It is a bold move to make. Daring and even adventurous. But I also say - reckless.

    Casey (Catharta) is not only my avatar for this world but I've come to like her very much. She's almost died before and is more jaded as a result.

    Plus, permadeath just doesn't hold in the game well unless it's absolute obliteration. Sylvanas dies (spoiler) but is brought back moments later. A paladin quest involved killing someone then bringing them back so you could learn the resurrection spell. So if you want a character to die, there better not be any paladins or priests about...because they'll spoil it.

    Now this is all just my opinion. If anyone wants to do away with their character, that's their business and it should be respected. But I don't feel that RP has suffered because we refuse to let them die. An excellent post, Jaero, and one to think about…I simply can't agree with it.
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    September 14, 2011 4:13:36 AM EDT
    A valid concern. My intention is not to have the planning of individual deaths be made public, even to others who may be involved in the storyline, save where necessary.

    Depending on how the story unfolds, there will be portions of the storyline in written form and others in-game. If the tragedy is a fight with Deathwing, for example, there may be a time made known for an assault and it would be up to each player to connect the dots for how they end up at that place, for what reason, etc - and their place to tell that part of the story for themselves. Just a glimpse at how progression may go.
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    September 14, 2011 4:18:33 AM EDT
    Catharta - agreeing with the idea and committing to the intentions are different things. I am not suggesting people recklessly run toward doom's doorstep. This must be weighed carefully, for individual characters and as a whole.

    Again, my aim is a dozen or more well known characters. This is but a small fraction of the larger population - enough to be noticed, and enough to feel the loss. That's the crux of it. You are in charge of your character(s). You know best if it's their time or not. If it's not, there is no pressure to join. While a select number of individuals may go to meet a heroic and tragic end, the world needs many more who can carry the weight of the loss and do something about it (perhaps to succeed where these moribund few fail).
  • September 14, 2011 4:21:42 AM EDT
    I understand, but Casey cannot participate for the main reason that she is a paladin, and can resurrect the dead. Any Blood Elf Paladin had to kill Sangrias Stillblade then bring him back as part of their training. So it's not simply a game mechanic…it's lore. So unless the dead individual is a pile of ash, Casey (or any other self respecting paladin) would resurrect him…or her.
  • September 14, 2011 4:33:25 AM EDT

    I see where you are going. It's ambitious and I have no doubt some very good RP will come from it. In fact, I agree with you more than you might guess.

     

    I'm one of those people who think that the Start Trek movies should have ended with part two, when Spock dies. Well set up, tragic, heroic, a true feeling of loss but he saves his friends lives and one can argue Kirk's soul in the process…

     

    …then they made part three and screwed that all up.

     

    This can be an epic event, but if Casey is to take part at all, it should be akin to Kirk at the end of part two…seperated, helpless to do anything except watch her friends die. Just something all pallys and priests should think about…as well as anyone who is planning on croaking.


    This post was edited by Catharta Ravenwood at September 14, 2011 4:35:04 AM EDT
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    September 14, 2011 4:43:49 AM EDT
    Well said. There's power in that. The implicated sacrifice of this whole thing is nothing without those who feel the loss and who may act in the wake of that loss.
  • September 14, 2011 7:37:52 AM EDT

    I have no desire to kill off any character, at least not yet... but I do find your idea very intriguing, And the idea that Jaero will meet an end...heck I just now met him not long back. I do agree this should be something the player should  think deeply  about before he or she takes on their final destination.It will be interesting at best to see what doors this opens and who walks through it.


    This post was edited by Syvbia (Vonghal) Dragonbane at September 14, 2011 7:39:47 AM EDT
    • 29 posts
    September 14, 2011 7:48:28 AM EDT
    Cal has every intent on living forever. Being a dragon and all.
  • September 14, 2011 7:54:05 AM EDT

    Casey said... "So unless the dead individual is a pile of ash, ".... Casey I have to add that in 'Lore' piles of ash have returned- take 'Dar'Khan (From the Sunwell triology) for example. He was originally  turned into a pillar of ash  but  during  BC was returned - where your character was charged with a quest to go remove his head. ( removal of heads  seem to be the final  end) that  is unless you are Medivh  of course...  his mother  fixed him :)

     

    Very good points being made here...I still support this post. I hope it is  taken with good stride and in good care.


    This post was edited by Syvbia (Vonghal) Dragonbane at September 14, 2011 8:02:22 AM EDT
  • September 14, 2011 8:07:18 AM EDT
    I haven't RP'ed on Alliance-side for several years now, for my own reasons. I'd be more than happy to donate Gospel to the cause.

    Death in the game is purely subjective, in some instances characters are resurrected, in other situations they die: Sedai in Hellfire Peninsula, that one quest in Icecrown to resurrect that one soldier, I'm sure there are *plenty* more. Suffice to say that there's plenty of support for character death, just as there is for character survival. It ultimately comes down to the Player and how willing they are to let go.
    • 74 posts
    September 14, 2011 8:44:29 AM EDT

    I agree that this is a good concept. The power of death is an incredible story device and should NOT be bandied about lightly. And I'm not just talking about PC death, but death in all forms. It should MEAN something.

     

    I've been a writer for more years than I care to relate. Lets just say its longer than many players have been alive. I've dabbled in many different plot devices over those years and the most difficult one to pull off well is death.

     

    I have killed beloved characters and in that moment of death you give that persona more power than they had in life. It should be treated with care and respect. For me it comes down to do it right or just don't do it.

     

    What I disagree with is the assertion that because we don't have regular character deaths that RP has been "cheapened". Just because someone doesn't kill off their main doesn't make them a bad roleplayer and you run the risk of creating that image.

     

    Do we want a sudden influx of poorly crafted character deaths that make no sense or are rushed into blindly simply because an illusion has been built that you're not "cool" or "badass" if you don't?

     

    You run the risk of cheapening death. Even in writing, it should not be taken lightly. Few things bother me more than reading a story where "Artie killed them all leaving their bloody entrails splatttered everywhere and with their blood still dripping from his armor he sat down and had lunch with his girl."

     

    Now I am in no way saying "don't do this" but how it is approached for both those who choose to kill characters and those who don't must be given equal consideration.

     

    Since I'm new to the server the only character I have of any notoriety I have no plans to kill. So I won't be killing anyone. Any of us not killing off our mains shouldn't have to deal with not being "badass" enough. And we shouldn't be thrown under the bus as bad roleplayers because of that choice.

     

    • 220 posts
    September 14, 2011 8:50:54 AM EDT
    I don't think that last point (not being badass enough) was implied anywhere. :D I hope no one drew that from the discussion.

    That said, I find myself in the same boat as Jaero sometimes. I've told all of Kormok's stories. Everything now that involves him uses him as a reactionary character, not one that has the time or ability to run his own plots. He's loved and lost, he's had (emphasis on past tense) a son, he fought his death knight father, he's led a clan, and he's been defeated by worthy (and unworthy!) foes more times than I can count on my fingers. He's just reached the end of his tale. Drawing it out any further, adding more drama to his existence, feels like it would do the character a disservice, like one of those 800 episode anime where the protagonist fights ever-stronger and more ridiculous opponents while powering up for ten episodes before he does it.

    I'd possibly be interested in participating in this, I think. My anchor is currently my GMship; a dead Kormok means no one to lead the guild (and believe me, I've been trying to get someone to take the job for two years). So I'd have to approach it carefully.
  • September 14, 2011 9:28:46 AM EDT
    Kormok Wraithverge said:
    Drawing it out any further, adding more drama to his existence, feels like it would do the character a disservice, like one of those 800 episode anime where the protagonist fights ever-stronger and more ridiculous opponents while powering up for ten episodes before he does it. 

    I completely agree, as I feel much the same with Gospel. She's had her share of drama, probably more than the character really deserves. There's really nothing left to tell.  She's been relegated to the stay-at-home wife of Corran that no one ever sees, which feels like something of a disservice to a character that has endured as much as she has.  

    Of course, Gospel's biggest problem would be Corran.  There's no way on Azeroth that he would let her out of his sight long enough to get herself killed.  He's already had a near-brush with that before and isn't likely to let it happen again.  Any other characters to which Gospel had any sort of meaning or attachment are really no longer played.

     

    Still, I feel like I owe it to Corran to give some finality to his relationship with Gospel.  It's hard to RP being attached to someone that's never around.   It's a lot to think on, when you take into consideration all the factors, moreso for people like Kormok who have attachments and relationships *everywhere*.  You're not just affecting your character, but everyone whose lives that character has touched.  Big decision is big.  ^_^

    • 80 posts
    September 14, 2011 9:34:12 AM EDT
    Death and its consequences or avoidance have been a major theme in Fantasy literature from the very beginning. From the Lord of the Rings to Harry Potter and everything in between fantasy has tackled the subjects of immortality, heroic sacrifice, and grief. In Warcraft’s own lore we see so much of this, particularly in the last couple expansions. Thus I’ve always found it slightly odd that you don’t see more permanent death scenarios crop up in RP.

    If only this had been posted a few months ago I would have had a couple of characters to contribute. Alas I’ve already juggled and refitted those I’d have offered up and don’t feel particularly inclined to dredge them out of retirement just to kill them off. As it stands my current crop of characters are at the beginning of their life cycle rather than the end of it, but if this concept is still around in a few years I may well give it a go.

    Still, I think this is a fun idea and I support anyone that’s willing to take that final plunge with a character. I’ve run through a death scenario with three characters in the past, some went quietly and others did not. I’ve never done a truly heroic death, so I’m excited to see how some of these deaths play out should they come to pass. Perhaps I’ll get some ideas for the future.
    • 74 posts
    September 14, 2011 9:50:55 AM EDT
    Kormok Wraithverge said:
    I don't think that last point (not being badass enough) was implied anywhere. :D I hope no one drew that from the discussion.

    In no way do I believe it was intentional, Kormok, but it is my *fear* that it will come out as a perception by statements such as "I feel as though we have cheapened our characters and our stories by depriving them of a necessary plot device". And that isn't fair to many of the fine roleplayers we have on our server.

     

    • 220 posts
    September 14, 2011 9:57:30 AM EDT
    There, we shall agree. Not everyone plays the type of character that would benefit from such an end, and people don't like killing off their babies, as it were.
  • September 14, 2011 12:15:59 PM EDT

    I already used the Cataclysm itself to slay not only some of my own characters, but also all of my husband's, since he doesn't play anymore.

     

    I may have one or two to offer up, however. I have great difficulty in slaughtering my fictional children, but it's good practice.

  • September 14, 2011 12:34:46 PM EDT
    I've only permakilled one character ever. It's hard for me to even let my characters get scarred (though I'm learning). I do agree that people involved in this shouldn't make it dead obvious (har!) that they are on the hit list.

    I'd like to be involved as one of the reacters. And I'm interested to see how the rez option is avoided. (I did take part in a "murder mystery" where a Tears Hopeful I was sponsoring got killed and then her soul got nommed so there was nothing to bring back).
  • September 14, 2011 1:04:48 PM EDT

    My first glance at this was "oh Jaero wants us to do a RP exercise where we plan the death of our character to deepen our understanding of the character"... then I read it again. Unless i'm confused Jaero is asking us to all drink the punch with him. I have no intention of actually killing any of my characters any time soon. You all are on your own with this one. I'm also confused how killing off long lived characters can boraden and improve the RP on the server... but thats a different thread I suppose.


    This post was edited by Sanctis Lightborne at September 14, 2011 1:07:28 PM EDT
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    September 14, 2011 1:26:53 PM EDT
    I'm kind of sad that Kibilgathol, a dwarven monk who would kill you with hospitality, went off earlier. I'll give it a thought, massive altaholic that I am, since I know that several 'should' be dead or whose last bow might actually make for good plot.
  • September 14, 2011 1:44:19 PM EDT
    An interesting idea old friend. I will definitly look through my alts to see if any might be ready to meet their end. You've my full support, and I do hope it goes well.


    HOWEVER. I have a question on the perma-death. Would being risen as a Forsaken count against it? For example, a hero's death, then drawn as many brave heroes of Lordaeron where back into the frey, on the opposite side (Via a faction swap). Would that be permitted?